Standards
The other day, Busty Satan asked a very innocent question:
Do you prefer it when a man pays on the first date?
As I read through the responses, I was sort of shocked. The overwhelming majority is YES, MEN SHOULD PAY. I guess I wasn’t shocked as much as I was disappointed, because this was not the first time I’ve seen such sentiment from women of my generation. And this sentiment reminds me there is such a double standard going on with women in their 20’s. 30’s. Even 40’s and 50’s.
Are we stuck in 1915?
Seriously, here’s my line of reasoning. Women today expect equal rights. Equal pay for equal work. We expect to be respected in the workplace. We don’t like being called a bitch when we make demands of others (when men making the same demands are considered authoritative). Our mothers fought tooth and nail to get professional opportunities that we consider commonplace today. That we take for granted.
We call ourselves independent. Professionally motivated. Smart. Driven. Even those of us who don’t consider ourselves feminists or activists expect to be able to make medical decisions about our bodies. Expect an equal right to vote. And want to be treated fairly and equitably when buying cars and appliances and homes.
And yet, these same women expect a man to pay for the first date? That seriously confounds me. In my opinion, you don’t get it both ways. It’s no wonder there is inequity in the workplace. Men see women making demands and clawing our way up the corporate ladder … and yet these same women won’t pay for a meal? Guys need to earn more money in order to afford going out on dates with women who have these expectations.
And that’s not to say I’m for inequality in the workplace. Quite the contrary. I met Lilly Ledbetter and am inspired by her fight. I met Jackie Speier and am inspired by her drive. My mother and mother-in-law are incredibly active in their communities and work hard for the freedoms I have. I am in awe of these women.
Personally, I expect these freedoms. I expect my independence. And as a result, I expect to pay my fair share in life. I don’t care who asked whom out on a date. If you don’t know the guy and this is your first time meeting, you should both pay your own way. Or at least you should make a legitimate effort to do so. And if the guy takes you up on the offer, don’t think poorly of him. Don’t look down on him. Don’t consider it a test. Consider it equitable and fair.
Maybe there are some of you who don’t want to be independent. Who don’t want your freedoms. Who need to be cared for and nurtured in the most primal of ways. And that’s fine. You get to expect a guy pays on the first date. But, I’m pretty sure 99% of the women reading my blog don’t fall into that category.
So enlighten me. Tell me, how am I in such an obvious minority? How is it modern women still expect men to pay on the first date? I just don’t get it.
Editor’s note: As you can tell, I have a fairly heated opinion on this matter. However, I do not want that to be mistaken that I am closed to the dissenting view. As many of you know, I love when you’re honest and when you challenge the way I think. Don’t stop now!
October 7th, 2009 at 5:37 am
Here’s my take on it. If someone asks me out on a date (and it’s been a veeeeerrryyyy long time since that happened) and i mean by that a firm ‘would you like to go out for dinner on x day’ then i would like them to offer to pay for it at the end of the meal.
However if it’s a ‘we should grab dinner’ then i’d expect it to be split and (and this is the most important one) i would never EXPECT someone else to pay and i would ALWAYS offer when the bill comes.
Oh and conversely if i ask someone out i would expect to be paying for it all myself.
October 7th, 2009 at 6:05 am
I was going to say almost exactly what LizSara said. If a man asks me out on an obvious date or says, “Can I take you out on Friday”, then I would hope that he was paying. However, anything more casual than that, I at least reach for my purse (silently hoping that he’ll tell me to put my money away, haha).
I’m a traditionalist who really still loves some of the old rules of courting. I expect a man to open a door for a woman the same way I expect younger people to open the door for someone who is elderly. I’m also a romantic who wants a man to pay for the first date, not because I am incapable of taking care of myself or being my own woman but because it shows that he has a level of traditionalism in him as well.
I don’t feel like allowing a man to pay for my meals or open doors for me takes away from any freedoms I have as a woman. In fact, I feel empowered in the fact that I like to be treated in this manner and would never date a man who didn’t show me at least this modicum of respect.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:05 am
I haven’t been on a “date” in over 2 decades so I’m not sure how the kids work things out these days but I would always offer to go dutch and pay may share but have to admit I would be happy to have my date tell me to put my money away.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:10 am
I am with the other commenters…if I am invited out, I expect the offer of payment, if I invite out, I expect to pay. But this is all within the context of ‘formal dating’. Does anyone even do that anymore?
October 7th, 2009 at 7:58 am
Whenever I offer to pay my part on a first meeting, I’m always shot down and shamed for it. I’ve quit asking.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:59 am
On a first date, especially if the man extended the invitation to me, I would always expect him to pay. I don’t believe that makes me any less independent at all. I just believe that a man paying for a first date is an act of chivalry — just like opening a door or walking on the outside of a sidewalk.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:59 am
I have no problem paing my own way. I don’t need to be coddled or taken care of. Sure its nice if the gentleman pays, but I dont expect it and always make an effort to either pay my share or pick up the entire bill. I often have lunch once or twice a week with a male friend. We’re not dating and they are just typical friendly lunches. More often than not that waiter or waitress will bring the bill and set it directly in front of him. We often split the bill or take turns getting the check. It drives me crazy that they wait staff just automatically puts the check in front of the man.
October 7th, 2009 at 8:06 am
I used to always prepare to pay for my share of dinner/movie. It was more for self protection rather than expectation. Most of the times, the guy would pay but I would always offer. In the cases that there was more dates, I would pick up the next check.
October 7th, 2009 at 8:26 am
I’m spot on with Hilly. I always offer to pay for my half – but I want him to offer to pay first. I do like that sense of traditionalism.
For me, it also comes from knowing that I tend to be a more aggressive personality than the guys I date. I’m usually way more outgoing whereas they tend to be more reserved and quiet. I’m also pretty sure that if I ever do find someone that makes me want to get married, he’s going to be the domestic person. Cause I can’t cook for crap. And don’t get me started on raising kids.
But I still want that guy to hold doors, help me with my jacket, carry my food for me if I take any home after dinner – even though it makes me feel silly – it also makes me feel protected. And I think…even as a strong, fiercely independent woman? It’s nice to feel like someone is essentially protecting you or wants to protect you though you can take care of yourself perfectly well.
October 7th, 2009 at 8:53 am
I have no idea on this because I have never really dated as an adult (I met my husband when I was 17). When we were younger, neither of us had any money so the person who paid was usually the person who had just gotten paid at work. And before my husband I was always a lot younger than the guys I dated so they paid because they had better jobs. I do like when men open doors for me and do polite things like that. I guess I never really thought about the paying thing since it never applied to me. It will be interesting to see all the comments here about this!
October 7th, 2009 at 9:03 am
While I believe in equal rights and feminisim and all that–the fact remains that my mother did not fight tooth and nail for those rights. She sat at home with babies and looked down on women who wanted to go to college, work 9-5, and get paid the same way men did. In many ways I am a first generation feminist.
I think it is nice, especially on a first date, when a man pays for dinner. If he is doing the asking, then he should expect to plunk down his plastic. As things progress I think both should be contributing to the relationship’s financing. Similarly, I think it is nice for a man to be the one to do the proposing. And the purchasing of an engagement ring. Does that mean I need to be coddled? Not at all. I have proposed to a man before, although I did not offer a sparkly diamond…perhaps that’s why he said no?
xox
October 7th, 2009 at 9:06 am
I prefer to pay my way. My reasoning is, if I don’t like the guy at least we went dutch and I don’t have to feel guilt. Outdated reasoning? Maybe. But it’s worked for me.
Even when it’s not a date, I’m still rather uncomfortable with people paying for me. I’m getting better at accepting and it helps that I’m in a place to reciprocate so it feels balanced. It’s nice to be treated but I definitely don’t follow the “men should pay” on dates rule.
October 7th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Well you’re not going to get much of a differing argument out of me. Basically when the check comes, I think both should offer to pay/split the bill. If one of the two insists on paying and says the other can take it next time, then I think that’s fine too. If you want an equal relationship, you shouldn’t expect anything less. Women can’t expect to have it both ways, you know?
October 7th, 2009 at 9:14 am
I think the responsibility lies with the person that does the asking. I believe it’s a little rude to ask someone out and expect them to pay, especially without discussing any of that first. I’m not a huge fan of splitting the bill while dating either, because I’m afraid of the message it sends. If a guy that I’m really in to offers to pay, I’m not going to *insist* that I pay my half for fear of putting that relationship squarely in The Friend Zone. It kind of sends a message that says “I’m me, you’re you, there is no us.” I think offering to treat the other person clearly says “I’m in to you” and so does graciously accepting someone’s offer. And I think graciously accepting is *just* as important as offering to pay. Generally, I think we (people as a whole) are bad about that lately, we want to find offense and get riled up, when we really should just say “thank you” and accept what’s offered (be it a compliment, constructive criticism, dinner, whatever).
I don’t really think work and relationships are good comparisons. I personally feel that what a woman does or expects in the workplace should have no bearing on her expectations of a relationship. A relationship is not just another job, we can’t approach it with the same attitude that we approach work. Someone that’s clawing her way to the top of the corporate ladder shouldn’t feel that she has to claw her way to the top of her relationship or family either. To me, it’s an apples and oranges comparison.
October 7th, 2009 at 9:35 am
As a liberated non-ageist, I think grown children should pay for their parents!
October 7th, 2009 at 9:46 am
I expect a man to pay on the first date AND not to use a coupon. Oh my standards are strict! Of course I see and respect all sides of the argument. But that is a an old fashioned tradition. Like giving out candy on Halloween, watching fireworks on the 4th of July and getting loaded at the company Christmas party.
Clearly, I am joking a bit, but it is just a tradition that I like. I think it shows respect and kindness and that manners. It is not really about the money. I don’t mind sharing expenses while dating, but it sets the right tone for the relationship.
October 7th, 2009 at 9:57 am
I’m 100% with Sizz. After 2.5 years, E. and I always paid our own way, or if one paid the other paid for something else. We were equal wage earners, so why would it be expected that he pay for everything?
And all that aside, even when I’m “playing the field” I don’t expect the man to pay. Because then I fear that sets up expectations that I absolutely do not want any part of.
October 7th, 2009 at 10:10 am
I’m not sure where this fits in with equality and etc, but I was taught growing up to always offer to pay for something on a date, first, third, last. And so I do. On my first date with Irish he bought the first round of beer, I bought the second. He bought the toasted ravioli, I bought dessert. Even now after 16 months of dating I still offer to pay and do pay for about 50% of the events/outings we go to. We split wedding presents 50/50. We split date night or make sure we take turns paying for things.
I do think the guy should make the offer to pay for the first date but by the same token, I don’t think we should always let them. (I don’t like it when men assume that we’ll pay our half or that we’re picking up the tab. A certain amount of gentlemenly behavior is still desired).
As for inequality in the work place? Don’t get me started =)
October 7th, 2009 at 10:10 am
I think that for me this is a matter of ettiquite rather than gender equality- when I asked mister out before we were dating, I would pay (or make the first move and fight him for it). When Mister asks me out, he pays. I think it’s more about the invitation to have you out that obliges someone to pay than who in the relationship is auditioning to play the role of breadwinner. I think the object, for me at least, has always been to take turns so between the two of us we come out even.
I also think that the offer to pay is a way for either party to show that they’re invested in what’s happening. If on a first date I was invited out by a guy who then wanted me to pay I wouldn’t mind the act of paying, but I would definitely flag that in my mind and see what he did on a second date. If someone isn’t interested in paying at all, I think that speaks to their investment in the relationship too.
I kind of see the connection between gender roles in relationships and gender roles in the workplace, but I think that the workplace is much more complicated. In one on one relationships, we set the terms so there is more room for negotiation and evolution. In workplace settings, the culture largely sets the terms- not one on one interactions. I’ve been in a few meetings in my life where managers have started speaking about me, personally, in sexually explicit terms while I was there, in front of co-workers. In a personal relationship it would be a joke or I could smack that person up side the head. In a meeting, I had to ask him to stop a number of times while people laughed at me. While I decided that I needed out of entertainment.
If you don’t check culture in a different way, it can get completely out of hand no matter how independant you are as a person.
October 7th, 2009 at 10:11 am
I expect the woman to offer to pay, and the man to decline that offer. :-)
October 7th, 2009 at 10:36 am
ha, i like your dad’s comment.
im with nora. i think manfriend paid for our first date of beers and pretzels, but i didn’t “expect” it. i kinda hoped for it, but had no expectations going in. i think it’s gentlemanly for a dude to offer to pay for the first date. i always offer, and am not dissapointed when the offer is taken up. now, we split most things, or switch off on more expensive things.
oh, and i just remembered. one time i went on a first date witha guy who insisted on splitting everything very equally. like, his 2 beers and appetizer and dinner, my beer and diet coke and dinner. i didn’t love that. too picky, too much. if we’re going dutch, let’s just split it, at least on the first date. taking out a calculator to figure it out? turn off indeed.
October 7th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Tricky one. My short answer on this one is to each her own. As long as you aren’t feeling bad about paying(resentful,etc.).
One thought, after the fact(since I am now married) is that part of me wanting to pay was that I was not in relationships or seeking relationships where I really expected it to go anywhere. I offered to pay half because we were just having fun or not very serious,etc. A way of acknowledging that?
I think that a man who is looking for a wife or seeking to send a message that he is truly interested in a serous relationship needs to pay or at least is wise to pay. I believe in rights and freedoms but I also believe in roles. I think men and women are not the same and are not called to the same things in relationships. I don’t think everything has to evolve into genderlessness.
I do think a man(or woman) can get into trouble trying to date above his pay grade though : ) Paying the bill may mean keeping it less expensive. I have taken my husband on dates but really I want him to pursue me and I think that is part of that. Women bring a supply of love, beauty,joy, creativity, compassion,(sometimes babies),etc,etc and all kinds of things men don’t just have in abundance by themselves. We are so worth being fussed over. I don’t think it takes away anything from our brains or freedoms. I am free to be adored! : )
*Disclaimer: for now I don’t work anymore and stay home w/baby-so now he has no choice. Even when I pay, he pays : )
October 7th, 2009 at 11:47 am
ps-
whoops.
I think I veered off your first date theme a bit. lol. I’ll go with the gal who said it sets a good tone when he pays. the who asked who is the other one. if she asked, surely she can pay. he should offer though if he’s smart : )
October 7th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Nilsa, I LOVE that you’ve taken up this discussion as I’m finding it all fascinating. Bridget and I agreed that we want to sit in on a women’s studies class to hear more intelligent, articulate women hash this out. I would love to hear from the men though. Any way we can make that happen?
As you know, I never said “expect” or “should” and specifically asked about a preference.
I abhor splitting a check when dating. That doesn’t mean that I always want him to pay, but splitting a check does, as someone already said, take away from the “us-ness” of it all. Furthermore, if I said to a friend, “I’d like to take you out for dinner,” I would never expect that friend to pay for herself. Dining is celebrating to me – whether eating out or cooking for friends – and calculating who owes what takes away from that celebratory atmosphere.
P.S. I have a feeling my dad would get along well with yours as he expressed an eerily similar sentiment when I asked his opinion on this topic.
October 7th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
I would love to take the time to read each and every comment here—because I’m sure many are amazing and many already state what I’m about to say—but the day is short and the to-do list long.
You, as always, raise such an interesting topic. I, for one, am more than happy to pay for my own meal, open my own door, purchase my own movie ticket, fix my own leaky faucet, change my own tire, and get myself into my coat, with no man helping me along the way. My parents both instilled self-reliance and independence as cornerstones of who I am and how I operate.
That said… I appreciate gentlemen. As much as I appreciate polite women. If someone wants to treat me to a nice meal, that’s lovely and kind. I’ll certainly offer to cover the tip. And I’ll most certainly return the gesture.
I like to think of this as basic courtesies, regardless of sex.
I don’t expect a man to do something just because he’s a man. Rather, I expect him to be polite, considerate, and generous because he is a *person* and because I deserve such treatment.
October 7th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
p.s. We have to e-mail about when you’re coming to Boston!!!
October 7th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
It’s come to my attention lately that I am the “Sugar Momma” in my marital relationship. IE. I make more money then my husband.
Not going to lie. I LOVE IT! ::insert evil laugh here::
I am with you about the contradiction you mentioned. I also feel quite fervent that women who are authoritative in a work place (much like men) not be called a bitch (while men are considered respectful). Though I didn’t do a lot of dating before meeting my Hubs, I remember ALWAYS offering to pay for dinner if a guy asked me out. However, if he insisted to pay, I would let him since, let’s face it, HE was the one who asked ME out. If I asked him to something, I of course would insist to pay, too.
Though there was that one time when I went to Canada with a guy for his fraternity formal (sort of out of sympathy) and he managed to get me to pay for the WHOLE WEEKEND. That’s another story for another day.
Anyway, while I consider myself a feminist, I still am OK with my husband opening the car or front door for me. I figure that this is not his way of reminding me of my “place,” but rather, his and my way of celebrating all that makes me a woman and thus SPECIAL ENOUGH to have my door opened out of love. If he let me open his door, I would do it (his Southern pride just won’t let it happen!). In exchange, I will do the dishes an extra time around and not complain, offer to do a load of his laundry, etc. No way are these jobs “assigned” since we are both equals in the house, but they are our ways of showing the other that we care.
October 7th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
I’m with LizSara… It might be antiquated, but if someone asked me out on a date, I’d expect them to pay. Just like I’d pay if I did the asking.
And I’m also with Hilly – there’s very little “traditional” in me, but paying for the first date, opening doors, having basic manners and being polite is important to me.
Ex: once, when Sean and I were first dating, we went to dinner with another of my girlfriends. He stood up when my mom came into the room as he was picking us up, he opened doors for both of us, and he ended up picking up the whole bill.
That said, now that we’re solidly in a relationship, we split things about 50/50. (I say “about” because we don’t count pennies but we both feel that we spend equally)
But I don’t find wanting a guy to pay on the first date to have anything to do with women’s rights, or equality – I find it to have to do with being polite and respectful, and chivalrous. I also think some men these days use the excuse “well, she wants independence or whatever” to not be polite or go out of their way for people, and I feel like it should be something everyone does out of respect for each other.
October 7th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
I am more than happy to pay my own way. In fact, I prefer to pay my half of the bill when on a first date (rather, I did prefer, when I was dating.) I am uncomfortable with the tradition behind the man paying for the first date. That being said, I wouldn’t make a huge issue out of it if my offer was refused, I would just make more of an effort to pay the next time.
October 7th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
I would say that when i was dating, i NEVER expected a guy to pay. That is appalling. Even now, we keep separate accounts…i never expect him to pay
October 7th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
i think i’m about as feminist as they come… but i still like it when a guy pays on the first date. not because i can’t; not because i won’t offer (i ALWAYS offer!!); not because he’s a chauvinist who thinks i don’t make enough money to cover a round of beers – but because it’s a sweet, polite gesture that helps differentiate between “we’re here as buddies” and “we’re here on a date.” i also like it when they open the door for me when we first meet, and touch the small of my back when we’re walking out of the restaurant.
i end up hating it when a guy INSISTS on paying every time we’re together – because i DO make my own money, i AM independent, and i DO want to be seen as an equal. but on a first date? that’s very different. i see it as a gesture – a way for a guy to show he’s making an effort and trying to be sweet.
conversly? if i were a guy, i’d expect to pay on the first date, but i’d also expect the girl to try and offer to split it ;-)
October 7th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
I didn’t read all the comments (I’ll have to go back later – this is too good to miss) but your first commenter hit it on the head for me. I went on a lot of Internet dates in my day, and although I ALWAYS offered to pay, I would find myself slightly annoyed if a guy had asked ME out and then didn’t pay my way.
If I was asking the guy out, I would pay his way. I’ve traded off like that many times when dating. I know this rule tends to tip things because I also wait for guys to ask me out before I ask them out…I don’t want to come off as too eager and scare anyone away. Now THAT maybe be very 1915 of me. Does that make me less of a feminist? :)
October 7th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
I am sort of like Hilly – I love it when men open doors, or let women out of the elevator first, or offer their seat on the bus (whether or not I accept it is another story). But like most others, I would expect the person asking for the date to pay. Of course, I have been with Steven 7 years, and this is not an issue. And we always split the bill with friends and sometimes with family.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
So I fall into the category of always offer on the first date but secretly hope he doesn’t take the offer.
And I have no good reason for it. Sorry :-( Perhaps it is traditionalism, and my appreciation of traditional gender roles.
Which I realize is a bit odd, because I do believe in equality. But I’m not so far down the equality path that I don’t still ask my father to fix my car, help me hang my photos, and fix things around the house.
Same goes for paying on dates. Plus, my boyfriend makes close to twice what I make. I sometimes feel guilty about all the spending he does on me, but he knows that I can’t afford what he can. And I’ve tried to even out and pay for more outings as my salary has increased.
On the flip side, if our salaries were reversed, I think I would expect to pay more often.
October 7th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
i don’t expect a man to pay on the first date. is it nice? sure, but not necessary.
i’m an adult i can pay for my own way thank you very much.
October 8th, 2009 at 10:18 am
i’m late on this but i think there’s a happy medium. yes i think things should be equal BUT i do think that whoever initiated the date should pay. if the guy asked the girl out, he should pay. i’m all about chivalry. i want doors opened…if the elevator comes to the floor and i’m waiting with a guy i want him to let me on first. those are common courtesies that seem outdated but I LIKE THEM. call me old fashioned if you want!
October 8th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
I think whoever does the asking-out should plan on paying, regardless of gender. But if I had asked out someone who makes way more money than I do, I’d be a little thrown off foot if he didn’t at least offer to pay for part of the date. It wouldn’t be a dealbreaker at all, though — especially because I don’t think I’d expect a wealthier girl to offer to pay if I were a dude. And it’s moot because I’m in a live-together relationship, so no more first dates!
October 8th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
I’ll be honest, I think guys should pay for dates. At some point, I agree that the playing field is level again and women can and should pay but I’m an old fashioned girl with old fashioned views when it comes to dating, specially when it comes to the beginning of the relationship. Which yes, is a double standard because I want to break the glass ceiling. But that’s just how I feel.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:38 pm
[...] date. Recently I came across a debate over this very topic over at my friend Nilsa’s blog, SoMi Speaks. She took the stance that women should in fact pay their own way, [...]